Curse

seven · Sep 18, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

you can try it out personally at raisu where 28's are fairly common. figures just came from other forums and wikis. for me though, i can say that i don't do 23% (or almost 1 crit in every 4 attacks) at lvl 25's.

SnipiousMax · Sep 18, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyngynkynyn

I don't really have any data on spell damage calculation to dispute you and searching for "spell damage calculation" here and the Wiki didn't return anything pertinent. For my own personal education, please cite your source on this matter.

Read this artcle here. It's not explicitly stated. But if you read the section on Armor Effect, Damage Rating, and Armor Rating, it should explain what Uber was saying. It takes YOUR level and your TARGET's Armor into account. That same section also talks about Critical attacks a bit. It adds 20 to your damage rating, which helps to make up for increased armor levels.

As for changing Crit. Strikes? I think that since it feeds not only the number of criticals... but also energy management, self healing, evasion and a number of other positive and negative effects through skill usage...it's a very fine Primary attribute as is.

Pick Me · Sep 18, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by pve-er

He mean Assassin.
Assassin has so many nick names

(Sin, Ass, Sassy, Noob?!)

I wouldn't call Noob the nickname for the Assassin. Isn't it the nickname for W/Mo?

Skuld - I think you were looking for the term, mobile corpse.

Critical Strike attribute should not change (not really anyway). Every profession has only 1 ability associated with the primary attribute. Warriors have Strength (% per level armor penetration); Rangers have Expertise (% energy reduction on non-spells); Monks have Divine Favor (+x healing per level of DF when casting a Monk Spell on Target Ally); Necromancers have Soul Reaping (+x energy per level on the death of anything in the area); Elementalists have Energy Storage (+x Max Energy per level); Mesmers have Fast Casting (% per level reduction on cast time); and Ritualists have Spawning (+% health per level to all summoned things).

Why should (even if only in PvE) the Assassin get additional powers for putting attributes into Critical Strike. Isn't +Energy and +% chance to get a critical strike not enough?

Evilsod · Sep 18, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

So where do mesmers get there boost in PvE exactly? Or did you forget that mobs with interrupts can interrupt things that cast in 0.25s just aswell as things that cast for 1s w/ fast casting?

Nobody ever said the attributes were perfectly balanced in PvE. Assassins have 1 of the highest DPS in the game to lower level foes. Due to the constant critical hits, does this mean Soul Reaping should be buffed to give 2x energy for enemies lower level than you? Or Strength gives twice the AP?

Besides what do you think Critical Eye is for?

glountz · Sep 18, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Read this artcle here. It's not explicitly stated. But if you read the section on Armor Effect, Damage Rating, and Armor Rating, it should explain what Uber was saying. It takes YOUR level and your TARGET's Armor into account. That same section also talks about Critical attacks a bit. It adds 20 to your damage rating, which helps to make up for increased armor levels.

As for changing Crit. Strikes? I think that since it feeds not only the number of criticals... but also energy management, self healing, evasion and a number of other positive and negative effects through skill usage...it's a very fine Primary attribute as is.

You should do some tests before talking or believing anything.
Take your character level 15 from Lion'Arch to Kaineng Center. Craft him a max level armor.
Take then the boat to Battle Isles.
Fight the elementalist there in the little "bot" arena. Note its damage. (Mind burn did 27-27 damage against my lvl 16 ranger's druid's armor, the Firestorm did 11 damage, 13 if critical).

Now, use your PvP Slot. Create a lvl 20 character. With exactly the same armor. Do the challenge. Guess what? You will take EXACTLY the same amount of damage (Mind burn with 27-27, 11/13 with Firestorm).

If they were talking about levels, it is probably attribute level.

EDIT: I misunderstood what you said, you were not talking about your target level I think, but your current level when casting a spell, and the damage correlation. Sorry.

Master Fuhon · Sep 18, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You should do some tests before talking or believing anything.
Take your character level 15 from Lion'Arch to Kaineng Center. Craft him a max level armor.
Take then the boat to Battle Isles.
Fight the elementalist there in the little "bot" arena. Note its damage. (Mind burn did 27-27 damage against my lvl 16 ranger's druid's armor, the Firestorm did 11 damage, 13 if critical).

Now, use your PvP Slot. Create a lvl 20 character. With exactly the same armor. Do the challenge. Guess what? You will take EXACTLY the same amount of damage (Mind burn with 27-27, 11/13 with Firestorm).

If they were talking about levels, it is probably attribute level.

Attack target: Level 2 Skale Broodcallers

Level 1 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare
hits for 19 damage

Level 2 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare
hits for 20 damage

Attack target: Level 1 Strider

Level 1 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare
hits for 14 damage

Level 2 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare
hits for 15 damage

To put it simply, I'm pretty lazy for only doing two tests like this. If I wanted to come up with solid proof I probably would have attacked every kind of enemy in Pre-Searing. But I'm noticing that there is a damage increase from character leveling without attribute allocation. In the past, I've noticed some pretty powerful damage from a level 20 monk wanding lower leveled enemies, which I believe should follow the other armor reducing/character level based formulas. I did about 30-40 flares worth of damage (at each character level) noting the same effect on these types of enemies.

If both of our tests are accurate, then there would be reason to believe that in PvE, character level affects the enemy's armor levels. For one thing, I'm probably fighting sub-60 AL enemies, and you are basing your conclusion off of 100 AL ranger armor. Where is the elementalist in Isle of Nameless who uses Mind Burn?

SnipiousMax · Sep 18, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

EDIT: I misunderstood what you said, you were not talking about your target level I think, but your current level when casting a spell, and the damage correlation. Sorry.

I was, but thanks for checking anyway.

To state simply what the posted link says:

The damage rating (which is used to calculate the Armor Effect, which is in turn used to calculate damage) is based on your Attribute Ranking for Melee weapons/bows/pet attacks and your character Level for wand damage/spell damage. While increasing your attribute will increase the amount of raw damage listed in the skill description, your character level determines how much damage is actually dealt against armor. I believe you have to be level 20 to deal full damage against a 60 AC target...but that's me assuming (I think your damage rating is = (3 * level)... which would mean 3*20 would be 60, which is what you need to deal the full amount).

Xyngynkynyn · Sep 19, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Read this artcle here. It's not explicitly stated. But if you read the section on Armor Effect, Damage Rating, and Armor Rating, it should explain what Uber was saying.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

It takes YOUR level and your TARGET's Armor into account.

Yes. From what I understand, the attacker's level increases his/her damage output. BUT, the target's level does not factor in so we're talking about 2 different things here.

Master Fuhnon's test case for example show that the damage increases as the attacker's (the elementalist) level increases which is beside the point.

What I'm getting at is more like: Given a level 20 elementalist, would his Flare be doing more damage to a lvl 10 target vs. a lvl 20 target if they both had the same AL?

In other words, does the target's level factor in this equation. If not then it's a bad comparison therefore false that elementalists are in the same underpowered plight as assassins in high level areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

That same section also talks about Critical attacks a bit. It adds 20 to your damage rating, which helps to make up for increased armor levels.

As for changing Crit. Strikes? I think that since it feeds not only the number of criticals... but also energy management, self healing, evasion and a number of other positive and negative effects through skill usage...it's a very fine Primary attribute as is.

My issue isn't with Critical Strike. It's with critical hits. The 20 added damage rating, the energy management, self healing, evasion and other effects you mentioned above only work if a critical hit happens. If it doesn't happen: no energy management; no self healing; no evasion; nothing. Critical Strike's benefits are conditional upon a successful critical hit. Sure other primary attributes have their conditions as well (Strength=attacks only, Divine Favor=monk spells only, etc.) but none of them are based on what target you're facing. Because of the way the critical hits are calculated, the chances of these assassin benefits happening decay (as seven aptly put it) the higher target's level is. The only way this can be comparable to a ranger for example is if Expertise read:

Quote:

For every rank in Expertise, the energy cost of non-spell skills decreases by 4%. Also increases the effectiveness of abilities in this set, mostly stances. Expertise fails 25% of the time when there are > level 20 targets in the area and fails 50% of the time when there are > level 25 in the area.

As you can see, it doesn't affect PvP but put him in a high level PvE area and you'll understand why assassin's are so underwhelming in those areas.

Peace,
Xyngynkynyn

glountz · Sep 19, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

[B]
If both of our tests are accurate, then there would be reason to believe that in PvE, character level affects the enemy's armor levels. For one thing, I'm probably fighting sub-60 AL enemies, and you are basing your conclusion off of 100 AL ranger armor. Where is the elementalist in Isle of Nameless who uses Mind Burn?

When you create a new PvP character, you test it in the Isle of the Nameless against various teams and kind of arenas. In the opposite team there is an elementalist using mind burn.

I repeat, I misunderstood you, I'm really sorry for that.
The attacker's level seem to be used in the damage calculation of spells. Not the target level. That is, if, being level 20, shooting flare on a level 15 or 28 target with the same armor will do the same damage.

On the opposite, Criticals happen regarding the target's level compared to yours. The attribute rank, is very less central, as I, with my lvl 20 sin, score criticals very easily and more than 75% of the time on lvl 1 targets with 3 critical strikes (to trigger the +1 energy) and 0 dagger mastery.
This said, an assassin in high-end PVE is seriously lowered, as he won't score many criticals, have pitiful base damage and maximum damage (less than a wand, remember), and must strikes against a big armor with no Armor Penetration.
So his energy management as well as his DPS is really reduced to nothing.
However, there is now (thanks Anet) cheap and spammable combos that strike really hard.

Priest Of Sin · Sep 22, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

doing more damage is fine and good, but my main use for Crit Strikes is the energy management.

seven · Sep 22, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

actually, i'd rather prefer that they also take out the added "bonus" that assassins get to crit when they face low lvl pve monsters just as long as they it doesn't decay on higher lvled ones.

yes mesmers even at 16fc can still be interrupted by the godly reflexes of monster ai. but that doesn't mean all of your spells will be interrupted. regardless of what monster you are facing FC will still do what FC is supposed to do, cast faster. you may be interrupted, but you still cast faster. besides it's not as if the majority of the game (tyria or cantha) that you'll get to encounter interrupt-specialized enemies.

critical eye only gives a measly +6% at lvl 13 CS. an added 6% is nothing
when you get a huge -50% reduction every 5lvls higher than 20. lvl 20's and up are quite common
and getting a critital hit on them is rare.

let's face it, the "advantage" assassins get on low level pve monsters are worthless. only a small part of the game deals with low lvl enemies. it doesn't take long in the game before you start encountering lvl 20,25,30. besides, those low lvl monsters are easily killed by any class in just a few hits, that this so-called critical bonus assassins get on low-lvl monsters are actually ignorable.

are there actually people who felt that the assassins were overpowered when they faced low-lvl monsters? no one seems to be crying out that yet. so yes, take out this so called "bonus" as long as crit strikes won't decay against higher lvl targets.

Symbol · Sep 22, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

The obvious answer is to remove the level dependency for critical hits. Why make things any more complicated then they have to be?

Yanman.be · Sep 22, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Errr...guys.

Locusts Fury spirit patrol assassin imo! Constant dualstrikes and critical hits. No way you can kill a spirit faster. ( sarcasmixeous )

I crit on spirits like 99% of the time. I would like that it stays the same way.

Xeln · Sep 22, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Taking out the level dependancies would be the best thing too do to fix it. It wont affect PvP at all that way and will still allow us to be useful to everyone in PvE. I don't understand why people keep thinking we want our crits for damage. We use DAGGERS, even with a critical strike i still hit for less than half the damage of a warriors regular attack with a sword. Look at it like this:

3 hit combo consisting of a lead, off hand and dual attacks, all 10 energy costs us 30 energy. Our base energy is 25. With one of our armor sets we can get to 32. While this will allow us to use the combo it doesnt let us do anything else, and almost no one uses just a three hit combo. Most of us have a couple other things we carry too, we have 8 skill slots for a reason. So figure in a couple things like Mark of Instability 10e, Shadow Refuge 5e, AoD 10e -1e regen, and Way of Perfection 5e. Now how are we supossed to use any of these without messing up our combo at all? We all know assassin's can't tank, but if we have to spend 10 seconds using auto-attack till we have the energy to finish our combo and get back out.

Recent changes lead me to believe that while Anet sees the problem exists, they don't have an interest in fixing it right now. Look at the changes they just made closely with this thread in mind. One of the most obvious things they did was the changes to the Critical Strike skill. Now its a cheap easy way to do a little damage, and get a couple crits, thereby giving you a little more energy. Now you can spam a quick cheap combo for a couple rounds, instead of running out of energy while trying to get off a combo that actually kills something.

You want to see how useless crits are for damage go fight level 24 druge guardians in ferndale. With max daggers, 16 dm, 13 cs, you will crit a lot in the fight only because you'll be fighting it FOREVER. My crits were averaging about 25 damage, which was a HUGE increase over my regular attacks doing 0. Luckily, they die pretty fast when you use Mark of Insta, BL, TF, FS, DB = -45e +18e = -27e. Make that times 2 or 3 for an actuall kill.

Xeln · Sep 22, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

I crit on spirits like 99% of the time. I would like that it stays the same way.

Best thing about this is if you have critical eye and way of perfection on after you drop a target you can drill a spirit a couple times and have most of your health and energy back.

Damastes · Sep 22, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

To keep it fair the only way to do it would be to remove the level differences effect from the crit chance calculation. If the formula is currently (and bear in mind this is simplified);

crit chance == (Weapon skill crit chance + CC crit bonus) * Level difference modifier

change this to

crit chance == (Weapon skill crit chance * Level Difference modifier) + CC crit bonus

This formula would work for every class in game, as they would have a CC crit chance of 0. In PvP and PvE it would make the Sin weaker against lower level opponents and stronger against higher level opponents.

Morgarath · Sep 22, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Sins arnt the only prof. that does critical hits. For warriors each point you put in Swordsmanship Increases the chance of a critical hit...actualy that mite be with a ranger for each point you put in beast mastery

jesh · Sep 24, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

/signed

This is one of the reasons I deleted my assassin, I could see the criticals dissapearing from my eyes as I progressed.
Removing the level dependancy works. So does just capping it at 20.
Yes, doing this might help warriors and rangers, other characters who use weapons.
Arena Net could simply tie this into the primary attribute so it wouldn't effect other classes.
Then everyone would be happy, right? ^.^